14 February 2003
Sir Andrew Foster, the outgoing controller of the Audit Commission, talks to Mike Thatcher
Vincent Square will be a much quieter place when Sir Andrew Foster finally moves on later this year. The controller of the Audit Commission, famed for his loquaciousness and his regular appearances on Radio Four's Today programme, has decided that ten years in charge is enough for anybody and it's time to try something new.
His departure coincides with the arrival of a tough and high-profile commission chair, James Strachan. But Foster is adamant that an agreement was reached 18 months ago that he would make way for a new controller once a chair had been appointed. If Lord Warner had not been vetoed for the chairmanship last year, then Foster would have been on his way sooner.
Giving a valedictory interview to Public Finance, Foster explained that he saw his tenth anniversary as a watershed. The recent success of the Comprehensive Performance Assessments, achieved despite vocal opposition from some parts of local government, made it a good time to call it a day.
It's certainly been a rollercoaster few years for Foster. For a while after Labour's historic 1997 election, the commission could do no wrong. It was given new powers to set up Best Value and housing inspectorates, and its remit extended into the Greater London Authority and the Welsh Assembly. Foster was seen as a wily watchdog – more house-trained than Chris Woodhead but still able to give a painful nip when required.
Then things started to go wrong. Best Value turned into a Kafkaesque nightmare, with councils complaining of endless bureaucracy. To add insult to injury, the government decided to take away the commission's health value-for-money work and hand it to a new super-inspectorate.
Somewhat unexpectedly, the CPA seems to have brought the commission back on track. So, what is in store now for someone who has spent more than 30 years working in the public sector?
What do you plan to do when you leave the Audit Commission?
I have no clear or firm plans. I am not retiring. I am moving on to use my knowledge and experience in different ways. What I will do is have a break for a while. I've got a yen to go to South America – walk along the Andes, go up the Amazon. After that I guess I want to build up a portfolio of interests if I can. That means some work around the voluntary or the charitable sector and maybe a place on a public board. Plus a bit of consultancy and non-executive directorships.
What is your greatest achievement at the commission?
I wouldn't see it as my achievement – I'd see it as the organisation's. But what marks this place out is the quality of the people. The fact that it has values and cares about public services passionately. I think the fact that we have stayed with the evidence and in the public interest. My own sense is that we are quite often not well liked but we are respected for being genuinely independent. The manifestation of that was the fact that we stayed with Westminster [the 'homes for votes' scandal] for more than ten years and won 5–0 in the House of Lords, the highest court in the land. Lots of people threatened us and we stayed supporting the auditor.
What was the commission's most influential report under your tenure?
Misspent youth [1996]. It said that the juvenile justice system wasn't a system, it was a shambles. Michael Howard as home secretary was very irritated with me about it. He thought the commission had a good history but here was an example of poor work on our part. But it was taken up by the Labour Party which, when it came into power, introduced a system comparable to what we had proposed.
What qualities does the controller need?
Most of all it's a sense of values about public services – a burning passion to improve public services and to tell it how it is without fear or favour. The job is like walking on a tightrope and you need a big balancing pole. You get given every opportunity under the sun to have cheap shots at people. I don't believe in cheap shots if you are a serious body. And we are a serious body. I disagreed, for instance, with the way that Chris Woodhead [former Ofsted chief] handled himself. I have tried to position the commission in partnership with public services.
How are the roles of commission chair and controller changing?
When we agreed that I was going, it seemed sensible that James Strachan should take a more positive and upfront role during the time of transition. I think we are going to see a more active chair than in the past but I don't think that necessarily means a diminution of this [the controller's] role.
How have you found working with James Strachan?
James is a very bright guy and he's very strongly achievement-focused. He is someone who will drive the success very hard. And I think that's got to be good news for the commission. If we believe in external challenge, to have somebody new come in who will challenge what we are and what we do has got to be positive.
How has the job changed you?
I'm still very enthusiastic. I have learnt so much about politics, about the media and about what drives politicians. I guess at times it makes me slightly cynical about politicians. There is a danger that they want short-term success. The average Cabinet minister lasts a couple of years and yet most managerial solutions need longer-term strategies. I think if you are not careful doing this sort of job, you do end up dealing with quite a lot of failure and the bad side of things and you have to be careful not to become too jaundiced by that. You can also get disenchanted by the press's need to over-dramatise the negative in any report.
Which politician impressed you the most?
During the Conservatives' period in government, Kenneth Clarke was outstanding as somebody to work closely alongside. He was the sort of guy who would socialise with you, he'd be very upfront, he'd be strategic, he'd be very direct. I found him very impressive. I know that he wasn't everybody's cup of tea, but to work closely to as a manager he was outstanding. In terms of the current government, inevitably I have a lot to do with the Treasury and I have always been impressed by Gordon Brown. The Treasury has reformed itself substantially during his time.
Which politician impressed you the least?
Shirley Porter [the former leader of Westminster Council].
How worried were you by the publication of the CPA results?
To do what we did in a year was a major achievement. It was an enormous exercise and I was deeply offended by the suggestion that there was horse-trading going on. It was a transparent process – any council that went up or down went up or down on evidence. At the time we had top lawyers involved making sure that we were sound for judicial review throughout the whole process. We ran an external quality control and an internal quality control and they weren't allowed to talk to each other.
What was your worst day in the job?
When we lost one of the Westminster cases. I thought: 'God, is it really possible to lose when we have got such strong evidence – that the whole British legal system can throw such a strong case out?' That felt awful. Only to be followed by one of the most positive days when the decision was overturned in the House of Lords.
PFfeb2003
